counter- counterpoints

Submitted by bayezid (Bangladesh), Dec 29, 2008 at 04:22

is the grand infidel using an intellectual force field to deflect my points, or does it have to do with the natural disposition of an infidel ?

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The original claim by you was that Muslims were the first to realise that the sun had a regular path around the 'heavens'. I pointed out the fact that this was well known to ancient peoples. I used 2 examples which are located in Europe - NewGrange in Ireland and Stonehenge in England. There are many more - and these continue to be discovered - with some notable but much smaller structures being found in Eastern Europe recently. Many other civilizations had detailed astronomical knowledge - the non-Islamic Egypt and China being other good examples. Hipparchus in the 1st century BC noted the precession of the equinoxes - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_precession ."

he keeps on arguing that primitive calendars made of wood and stone had the ability to determine the movement of the entire solar system (the sun moving with all its planets around a ifxed orbit). if the infidel had only but been more informed of those devices, he should have known that they did not have the ability to do that. they merely set a course of the suns rising and setting. the movement the stonehenge meant was that of from our perspective here on earth. it was not talking about the solar apex. the solar apex had been discovered between the 19th and 20th century. much to the dismay of many like minded infidels, sice it reinforced the claims of the quran.

the solar system takes 226 million years approximately to make one revolution. the scientists claim that so far only 25 solar apexes have been assumed with modern tools of science. in order for the druids with wood and stone to detect it it would require tem to live for millions of years !!! a rather foolhardy claim for them therefore. besids, if the entire solar system moves, dosent it mean the earth moves too? how is that detectable since all those things are in their places. the sun does not have the ability to detacch itself and move from the rest of the planets.

the best the druids did was detect the suns moement through the sonstellations. but this is scientifically proven as illusory since its the earth thats moving, and not the sun. the druids were talking bout that movement.

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That's stating the obvious. But what does it actually say - that leads you to believe that it was actually talking about the sun's revolotion around the galactic centre? Could you quote the exact passage please?
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the unknown passage is probably ambiguous and may be open to several interpretations."

so according to the infidel, 1400 years ago it was common knowledge of the suns movement along the solar apex ? he is more deluded than it seems. he keeps on confusing of the illusory movement of the sun through the constellations with the actual revolution of the sun with all its planets with it. i will gladly present ayahs from the quran regarding its claim of the suns movement.

--sura 14, verse 33:
"For you (God) subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses. And for you He subjected the night and the day."

It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)

And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38)

these ayahs clearly show the movement of the sun. the originl arabic language further elucidates this matter as one reads these verses from the noble quran.

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No, 'Allah' did ot make them so lacking in insight that they had to build a monument to prove the sun rose and set. Stonehenge was designed as a lunar calendar and to accurately indicate when the winter and summer solstices occurred - the most important being the winter solstice which indicated the ending of the privations of their harsh winters."

no matter how insightful ALLAH may have made the kafir's ancestors (which is doubtful, however) they were human beings. like all human beings they had the limitations beyond which making certain claims were impossible. they never had the 'insight' to find out how detailed and deliberate a way the sun moved and maintained a course. the only 'movement' of the sun they saw was that of thru the zodiac which was not the movemtn of the sun t all, but of the earth. we can only pray ALLAH gives the courage to our great kaffir to see the truth of it once and for all.

and i believe ALLAH kept this 'common' knowledge for the descendants of the druids to later discover and be awed. lol .

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Well, it would have been nice if Bunjil did wouldn't it? It would be much more useful if the Koran was peppered with more juicy and clear, unequivocal and accurate tidbits of scientific information. Perhaps even giving some concrete advice on useful pursuits in any field . Pick a field of endeavour - I don't know - let's say the creation of electricity perhaps, how to make a very simple motor maybe? No mentions though of copper and lodestone though is there? It would have saved a lot of people from wearing out their bodies over the ages. Why not even a slight hint where we should be looking? Wouldn't you yourself have been so kind if you knew? "

by his dissatisfaction the kafir seems to have been blinded to the truth in the quran. little does he realize that it was lucid enough for everyone to understand. it was all explained in laymens terms for everyones convenience.and little does he realize tht if ALLAH indeed used words like solar apex and trajectory of the sun, the people would be more confused than enlightened. im sure the infidel knew that such terms were not heard of back in those days. i leave the rest for him to consider. if he does leave tie for himself to contemplate on things, that is.

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Pure myth and wishful thinking on the part of an Islamist who believes and would like others to believe islam is responsible for all the great advances in the world. Spain had its renaiisance only AFTER it had kicked out the invading Islamists. If anybody is to be thanked - it s the Irish priests and monks who preserved previous knowledge in the arts and sciences, mostly written in Latin in their remote castles and monasteries.

after spain kicked out islam using the muslims own strength that is, it sank back into a lesser version of what spain was under islamic rule. fact !! it must be quite embarassing for the infidel to realise that he had never heard of the university of cordoba, which was the pivtal point to europes staggering success later on. little does he know that people from every corner of the earth flocked to islamic spain for learning. and for conversion to islam. and countless of them that came were europeans !! the seeds of the renaissance were sown back in the early days of islamic spain. an islamic spain they would later destroy. one can only wonder at the ungrateful nature of our european ancestors.

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I think it goes without saying they knew they were always living in the same planet they woke up on the day before."

if they did, how, oh how, could they know that the sun moved along a set path discovered only recently? a fact discovered in the last century. the infidel becomes boggled by his own wordplay here. we were talking about them being not so advanced. and so they did not know.

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Again - you need to provide proof of this statement that is clear and unequivocal. A verse that just says that the sun travels across the heavens does not constitute proof."

the proof has been provided in the beginning of this post . i used the ayahs nd not just one of the quran which show the sun moved along a set path. i do believe the kafir is seeking assurance from the quran here. and lets not forget, te quran was the reason the muslims were advanced in the first place.

--sura 14, verse 33:
"For you (God) subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses. And for you He subjected the night and the day."

It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)

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