but the same elephant !

Submitted by bayezid (Bangladesh), Dec 29, 2008 at 06:40

>>Have I induced hysteria in you? Or merely triggered a pre-existing condition? "

no i believe the credit is entirely yours. im surprised that you cant tell how much i enjoy wrangling you.

>>

"The question was do you agree that other and older civilizations had knowledge(amongst other things) of the passage of the sun? You claim Islam was the first to make this basic observation. I gave you two well-known examples, New Grange and Stonehenge in Europe."

quran does not make observations. it declares. we make observations. and no, i dont agree that the older civilizations had knowledge of the path of the sun. to do so would be foolish. a path you have wilfully chosen for yourself. il say it as clealry s possible : the ancient civilizations did not ! know that the sun moves along a pth which we call today the solar apex.

>>

You obviously think tha. I do not. And no - no teeth grinding. I am quite calm in fact far calmer than you would imagine.."

who are we kidding, right ?

>>

I thought you were a Bangladeshi - my mistake. And I wasn't singling out 'my ancestors' for special approval from you - I mentioned other civilizations efforts at astronomic systems . I mentioned Stonehenge and New Grange because they are well-known , reasonably 'ancient' and can still be fond to be working today. "

thats great. maybe we'll visit them sometime.

>> "I also pointed out the Muslims seem incapable of admitting when they get it wrong. Your silence tends to prove this."

do all my replies that hit you a 100 mbps in your face tell you im silent ? i have replied to every ridiculous question you have asked me and if i missed any i remember replying to them later on. so what are you talkin about ? so do yourself a favor and give it your disbelieving best.

>>

An absurd propostion which I'm sure others will comment on - but, OK, just off the top of my head - how about a head of state suggesting to wipe another country and all its inhabitants off the map. Does that count? "

i thought you once said you never get desperate. well what is this ? so far weve been arguing about the authenticity of the miraculous al quran, and here you are spewing politics. a desperate attempt to look for escuses. and embarassing on your part , to say the least. the head of state in question, no doubt, had some really good reasons to say that. since the people he was talking about wrongfully occupied a place not even theirs. i think you would have done the same if i went to your own house and kicked you out of it .

>>

Your argument is based on the statement that the Koran is a verbatim dictation from God??? That cannot be proved and most rational people, even with good intentions and awareness of Muslim sensitivities on this point - do not agree with that statement.

my statement is based on the observations of countless wise and learned men. who agree. and my sttement is based on reading the quran. a book where ALLAH speaks uncanny truths about us in a language that tells stories in single sentences. unlike yourself, i do not argue without considerable reasoning.

if by rational people you mean people that still believe we came from apes and people that think everythjing came to be from chance, you are on the other side of rationality.

>>

So without getting too metaphysical here - and bearing in mind that some readeers of the forums hold beliefs in the non-existence of anything approaching the concept of a deity, 'God' (supreme consciousness) could not have used other people to communicate through?

sure HE could. and HE did. the quran was communicated through the angel gibrael to muhammad pbuh. the angel dictated the words of ALLAH to him and the prophet simply had those written down. the thing we should notice here is the style in revelation. consider the previous books, they werent dictated word for word from firsrt to last. the quran was.

>>

This gets down to the question of sharia and fatwas. I asked another Muslim poster on here to explain how two opposing fatwas can be issued by different Imams (or other fatwa issuers). Either one of them is right or neither of them is right. As an example - say your Sunni imam issued a fatwa on me saying I should be killed for saying Mohammed was not a prophet. And say another imam in Lebanon - a Shia - issued a fatwa saying I should not be killed because I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet. One or both of them thought their ideas agreed with what Allah wanted them to do. Otherwise they would be acting against the interests of allah (which we won't even consider, as they are good, devout Muslims.) "

yet another smokescreen . the question of sunnis and shias is hardly applicable here. besides, the groups dont have an authenticity of their own because ALLAH has fixed the laws and there is no scope of changing them. the muslim world is under attack from many sides. and subterfuge from the inside is the most common. there were never meant to be shias or sunnis. just muslims. based on quran and sunnah. we go by what ALLAH says and what HIS prophet says. simple.

no you wont be killed for saying he isnt a prophet. youll be receiving glances of pity as you walk by.

the question here was whether reigion should be seperated from state. state is a tool of administration. nothing more. the key word jhere is administration. according to you, administration is to be conducted independent of religious guidance. or guidnce from ALLAH. but fact of the matter is religion is there for this purpose also. for administration of people. how else will people be ruled as per GOD's laws? so saing that religion is incompatible with state affairs is a foolish and shortsighted claim. arrogant too. since when do we have the right to override the objectives that came down from ALLAH?

the secularist approach is also hypocritical since it claims to include religion in it but dos not go by it. it is either arisen from misunderstanding of the religion or from sheer arrogance and i think even according to you, both ignorance and arrogance are traints to be discarded.

>>

We live life according to our current state of awareness and our realisation of what it true, moment to moment. "

with all due respect, we do not have what it takes to know what is true and what is a mirage. we need ALLAH to tell it to us. our awareness is subject to our environments and our current store of information. and with the change of the volume of information and change of the enviorment, our awareness also changes. so what awareness shows now is not testament of truth since awreness may show something else later. we also have a universal awareness that tells us that since we are wrong most of the time it must mean we need a reliable source of truth. what better source than ALLAH?

animals live moment to moment. man is superior and so lives understanding his condition and thus goes about according to it.

>>

I have no idea what you mean here - what has this to do with librarians?"

i thought so.

>> What struggle?? Knowledge of the truth of one's real self is not a struggle."

ever asked where our reason to ask about ourselves comes from? we do indeed struggle to know the self, dont we? it is an effort. and we do it fully realizing that it yields or will yield something profound in the end. so we seek to know the self because it shows us the truth. and ALLAH is the truth. so in knowing the self, we attain nearness to HIM. but knwoing the self is never an end in itself, it serves the purpose of giving a better view of god.

as Muhammad peace be upon him has said that in knowing oneself, one knows ALLAH.

>> where indeed is the real goal and what is it? it is ALLAH. our maker. the source from whom all came. it is a return to the source. where all struggle ends. where the purpose is fulfilled and there is no more to prove. it is completion"

I agree - but where is the source? Where have all the real prophets ALWAYS said it was?"

i am assumng that you are inquiring as to the location of god. THE GOD (ALLAH) is beyond having such limittions. attaining peace is annihilation into the infinite in a way only HE knows best. if god had a how and a where and when, it would hardly make him god, wouldnt it? among HIS other attributes ALLAH is known as al adheem(infinite, great), al shaheed (ever present)and al wasi (the vast, infinite). i dont know what 'real' prophets you are talking about, but MUhammad pbuh, jesus and moses and other prophets taught this.

>>

again - where is the God you seek?"

the word where for god is useless and futile. GOD is near to all. yet HE is also there. HE is beyond being referred to as here or there. thats the god Muhammad peace be upon him was talking about.

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