bazyezid: Word play revisited

Submitted by Plato (India), Dec 25, 2008 at 23:54

bayezid, you wrote:

>>verses from the quran are ! better than the verses you provided from the other books. first and foremost. you havent really presented any of them in therir original language. so that kills a big part in judging the melody and the beauty.<<

Neither have I presented the Koranic verses in Arabic. Since all three have been translated into English, you can expect they would suffer about equal damage to their original beauty and sense. If I had presented them in Sanskrit or Aramaic would you have been able to appreciate them?

>>even with translated versions there are things to notice which even a simple bigoted, and cynical mind such as yours will agree upon.

but let me say it beforehand, the injeel and the veda are beautiful. they contained revelation from GOD earlier. but quran is total reveltion. total speech.<<

My simple, cynical mind wants to know what they contain now. Garbage?? What happened to Allah's unchangeable words 006.034 YUSUFALI: Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.

>>in rig veda and the bible you have people speaking about GOD. in quran you have GOD speaking about HIMSELF and man.<<

Just a few sentences ago you said they contain the revelation from God. What now makes you say they are people speaking about God? Let that be. But tell me weren't what those people spoke revelations from God?

>> quran contains direct messages and instructions. veda and bible do not.<<

Koran contains direct message? You are kidding me. Did not Muhammad himself admit that he received it second hand from Gabriel and what you have is what was written down by his listeners and compiled much later. You also admit they are revelations from Allah and Allah being all-powerful is capable of communicating His message clearly to His prophets of the Vedas and Bible. If you deny this you are denying that Allah is all-powerful. So what happened to Allah's words in the Vedas and Bible?

>>it is beautiful how prayer is made to the lord and how one loses onel\sef in wonder at his glory as stated by you respectively in bible and veda. but it is more beautiful when GOD talks. lets face it GOD as HE is , does sound better than HIS creations :man. GOD tells us in the simplest way how HE created the universe. HE tells us how beautiful and hbitable HE made the earth for us. and it does not conflict with science. in HIS speech we find truths about ourselves and we know our purpose. count the number of topics and issues god brings up in quran and count the ones in bible or veda. you will find the answer yourself.<<

I have read some parts of the Vedas, quite a bit of the Bible and every bit of the Koran. The Koran cannot hold a candle to either the Vedas or the NT. And I am an atheist. I have no axe to grind.

>>notice that out of the 3 books, only in quran is god almighty speaking. but in the other books the speaking is done by people. revealtion means from GOD. so who better to speak it than GOD?<<

I have noticed. I have also noticed that you have forgotten this is all about a challenge in the Koran that it cannot be imitated. You reject it on the ground that the other verses are not direct words of Allah, then what remains of the challenge?

This is what you had written: "quran is word of GOD. i dont have to prove it to you myself, ALLAH challenges anyone who disbeieves. ALLAH challenges you to write a book like this. 1400 years and we are still waiting."

And this is the challenge in the Koran:

010.038 YUSUFALI: Or do they say, "He forged it"? say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"

011.013 YUSUFALI: Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "Bring ye then ten suras forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah!- If ye speak the truth

Allah did not have to wait for ever to have His challenge met. When He issued this challenge He had apparently forgotten that His previous works given to Hindus and Christians were equally if not more beautiful than His latest Arabic version. One does lose one's touch as one grows older, you know.

>>notice the style in speech in the 3 books.<<

All the three books, if the Koran is to be believed, are from Allah. But since Allah claims His unchangeable words were changed by some miscreants (please explain how this could have happened) I am showing you Allah's verses which were improved upon by those corrupters.

>> in the surah there is a clear cut message of what to do and why given clearly. but at the sme time the ayah talks about how ALLAH made things beautiful for us and how he not only created creation but also deliberted it and shaped it for us to notice. ALLAH has also given us an insight as to how fertile pastures are drawn from the earth and how it becomes so aundant.and ALLAH tells us also how people in hell will neither die nor live which is uncannily eye opening since we do have comatose patients that neither die nor live. so ALLAH, while talking about our objectives and duties also informs us and gives us insights about his creation.neither in the bible and veda passages do you have the info presented in a more intimate and precise way. the bible passage simply talks about a man praying to god and the veda simply wonders at god's existence and existence of things. they may be nice to read to some extent, but the info in them is nothing compared to what ALLAH gives in the quran in simple messages.<<

Out of this tafsir of yours I have underlined two sentences. You triumphantly proclaim that since Allah says unbelievers (who He created as unbelievers) will be in a state where they are neither dead nor alive He is comparing them to comatose patients. Comatose patients don't feel a thing. But in several other verses Allah informs us those in hell will feel excruciating pain and will endlessly swallow pus and other unmentionable stuff. This verse is contradicting those other verses. So the info contained in this verse is wrong or all the verses are wrong. What happens to all the other info contained in it?

Why have you avoided comparing the Lord's Prayer with the Fatiha which you consider the greatest verse since time began. It does sound puerile compared to the Lord's prayer does it not? The Al Fatiha is a vacuous verse of narcissistic self-praise. Here it is again.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,

The surah sounds as though Allah is praying to Himself. At least in the meaning part, Al Fatiha falls flat compared to the Lord's Prayer. It also as usual dishonestly informs us that Allah is the most merciful when He proves again and again He is not. You have yourself admitted He is responsible for all evil and He has also created evil unbelievers like me.

Al Ala too is a surah mostly of self-glorification.

>>the language in which the quran is revealed cannot be changed. it cannot be written substituting one word for the other. neither can the sentence structure be altered. veda and bibles cases are different.<<

Why can't it be changed? Muster up some courage and try changing Allah to Satan in some verse of the Koran and check whether instead of Satan you are forced to write Allah. Have no fear Allah will not fail you!!! Take my word for it. LOL

>>i will present a short ayahon creation from surah al anbiyaa

30. Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?<<

The heavens and the earth were never joined together. The heavens appeared at least 10 billion years before the earth. This is Zakir Naik's nonsense science. In other places the Koran says living things are made of clay or dust.

>>31. And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them, and We placed therein broad highways for them to pass through, that they may be guided.<<

Mountains were themselves formed by earthquakes and expulsions of lava. In fact many of them are at the fault lines of the earth where the maximum earthquakes occur. You are in Bangladesh, a flat land, how many earthquakes have you experienced? Skip to Pakistan a very mountainous area and add up the earthquakes and the deaths caused. The mountains were useless as earth stabilizers.

>>32. And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and well guarded. Yet they turn away from its signs (i.e. sun, moon, winds, clouds, etc.).<<

The earth being a roof is what pre-civilisation man thought.

>>34. And We granted not to any human being immortality before you (O Muhammad ), then if you die, would they live forever?<<

Allah is just making an excuse for His inability to stop the natural process of dying.

>>35. Everyone is going to taste death, and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good, and to Us you will be returned.<<

Allah is just stating the obvious.

>>and mind you its the translated version. now you prooooove to me that there is a passage in ither bible or veda regarding the creation and the world in such correct, melodious detail than here in the quran.<<

Allah is full of confusion about his capabilities. He says in some places that all He has to do is say ‘be' and it is (2:117, 3:59). In other places He says He took six day to create the universe (7:54, 10:3, 11:7….). Then Allah forgets that His six-day labour and while adding up the times He took for creating the various regions of the universe He ends up adding to days to the time he took and ends up with 8 days (41:9-12). If you visit the popular Islamic site of the purported Islamic Scholar, Zakir Naik, irf.com, he informs you that asking questions about this mistake is blasphemy!:

"On the face of it, it seems that these verses of the Qur'an give the initial impression that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days.

Allah says in the beginning of this verse that those who exploit this information contained in this passage to raise doubts about its authenticity are equally interested in promulgating blasphemy and denying His unity. Allah is telling us that in course of time, there will emerge unbelievers who will make use of this apparent contradiction." (http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm)

Isn't Muslim logic just wonderful!!

Regards

Plato

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".