counterpoints

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Dec 27, 2008 at 21:09

Mr. Bayezid, sounding a tad frantic continues:
"

Submitted by bayezid (Bangladesh), Dec 27, 2008 at 14:08

"if it is something you learn at an elementary level ,why would you bring it up as a case against the qurans genuinity? "

The original claim by you was that Muslims were the first to realise that the sun had a regular path around the 'heavens'. I pointed out the fact that this was well known to ancient peoples. I used 2 examples which are located in Europe - NewGrange in Ireland and Stonehenge in England. There are many more - and these continue to be discovered - with some notable but much smaller structures being found in Eastern Europe recently. Many other civilizations had detailed astronomical knowledge - the non-Islamic Egypt and China being other good examples. Hipparchus in the 1st century BC noted the precession of the equinoxes - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_precession .

"in the quran ALLAH tells that the sun moves along its own path. "

That's stating the obvious. But what does it actually say - that leads you to believe that it was actually talking about the sun's revolotion around the galactic centre? Could you quote the exact passage please?
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the unknown passage is probably ambiguous and may be open to several interpretations.

"....modern science proves it and calls it the solar apex. certainly your druid ancestors couldnt have known that. they couldnt since they moved with it. thats all. the stonehenge definitely did not help detect the sun moving in an apex with all its planets. it simply showed how the sun 'rose' and 'set'

No, 'Allah' did ot make them so lacking in insight that they had to build a monument to prove the sun rose and set. Stonehenge was designed as a lunar calendar and to accurately indicate when the winter and summer solstices occurred - the most important being the winter solstice which indicated the ending of the privations of their harsh winters.

".....So the Koran states that the Sun has made over 200 revolutions around the galactic centre?

does it have to ? isnt it enough when ALLAH says all the heavenly bodies are moving about their individual courses in harmony ? i believe ALLAH was confident of the intelligence HE granted you so as to figure this out. im sure HE knew it wasnt necessary to mention that the sun made 200 revolutions to convince you of that."

Well, it would have been nice if Bunjil did wouldn't it? It would be much more useful if the Koran was peppered with more juicy and clear, unequivocal and accurate tidbits of scientific information. Perhaps even giving some concrete advice on useful pursuits in any field . Pick a field of endeavour - I don't know - let's say the creation of electricity perhaps, how to make a very simple motor maybe? No mentions though of copper and lodestone though is there? It would have saved a lot of people from wearing out their bodies over the ages. Why not even a slight hint where we should be looking? Wouldn't you yourself have been so kind if you knew?

Grand Infidel wrote:

"...you should drop your ethnocentric , racial and cultural biases for just long enough to appreciate that very little is actually known of the Druids which you've used as an example. Anglo-Saxon people do not necessaily descend from Druids. And casting them as primitive is hardly the position you should be taking. If Islamic BanglaDesh had such enlightened forebears - what the hell happened????"

"..........what happened is your descendnts happened. "

Well, some of my decendants have happened , but they are not sufficiently advanced in consciousness that they are able to interact with the past.

"we were doing just fine till the east india company came in. "

Your Hindu ancestors - the ones who were forced to become Muslim ?

"......colonialism happened. oh we have you to thank for all the misery we 'enjoy' today. "

Why thank me - I don't have English ancestors? You blame others for your own misery? The Baltic states - Estonia, latia and Lithuania - amongst others, suffered dreadfully under the repressive yoke f the Soviet Union. In 1989 their capitals were drab, coolurless, lifeless cities with no verve or sense of fun. Their economies were stagnant and the people poor. less than 20 years later - and these countries are unrecogniseable. The people are happy, their commercial centres are equivalent to anything in any western city, they have free press a fair legal system and complete freedom to do whatever they like.

What was the big difference? The removal of a retrograde and repressive and pervasive totalitarian mentality - in their case Moscow's influence.

".....dont be modest now. im sure you have that amount of historical knowledge to know how your british ancestors ruined this land."

In much the same way I guess as they ruined Canada, New Zealand, Australia and even the US?

As I said - I don't have British ancestors. So once again you don't have your facts straight. But I am aware that the British did have an empire and that as they said - the sun never set on it. I'm also aware that putting aside their at times somewhat stern control over their colonies wherever they went they left a legacy of social institutions which are indispensable today in running countries efficiently. Eg. the rule of law, hospitals and health system, education , transport networks etc And lucky you get an exposure to English which you would most likely would not have had.

"and so much for your enlightened disposition, need i mention that the renaissance wouldnt have occured without the influence of islamic spain? that the so called modern world has islam to thank for all the knowledge that it had preserved and transmitted? it is undeniable that europe is what it is today because of islam."

Pure myth and wishful thinking on the part of an Islamist who believes and would like others to believe islam is responsible for all the great advances in the world. Spain had its renaiisance only AFTER it had kicked out the invading Islamists. If anybody is to be thanked - it s the Irish priests and monks who preserved previous knowledge in the arts and sciences, mostly written in Latin in their remote castles and monasteries.

>>

".....You've left out the Chinese and many others but, yes, other cultures were far more advanced scientifically than the early Muslims. I totally agree.

so they were advanced even when they couldnt figure out the planet they were iving in? "

I think it goes without saying they knew they were always living in the same planet they woke up on the day before.

"They were advanced even when they did not know the sun made a solar apex? even when muslims knew them instead? "

Again - you need to provide proof of this statement that is clear and unequivocal. A verse that just says that the sun travels across the heavens does not constitute proof.

"....makin a stonehenge isnt a sign of advncement."

Given the period it was built and the function that it serves - it was pretty advanced. Do you have something like that there in BanglaDesh? But I guess you wouldn't have needed to given that it is so close to the equator and solstices are pretty much meaningless.

"....it is merely an effort. it hardly gave people correct information. "

well, yes - it is. But is there something wrong with that?

"thats why it is just a historical showpiece today."

It's famous because of both its antiquity and its accuracy. and the fact that the stnes were transported over 150kms from where they were quarried in Stonehenge's case.

>>

The honour is misplaced. There is no concerted effort against you, an individual. Different people write in response to absurd statements from any individuals. Do not take it personally, it would not matter who made them. In short - you set yourself up for such 'honour'.

"you are modest . although i do enjoy the honor a lot, it does make you look like you are a bit too eager to please. maybe you should keep a check on that. your friend plato knows what im talking about. lol."

You can take it however you like but there is no attack on you personally.

You grew up in a culture in which you get positive reinforcment for holding the beliefs which you do. You have everyone around you agreeing with you, you have made all the rationalisations you have needed to make and have developed your thinking to be in line with it. It's not as though you grew up in a culture in which it is difficult to hold opposing beliefs. For example - imagine being a Christian in Saudi Arabia for instance. Or a Buddhist in Iraq.

Your world view and cosmology seems so 'obvious' to you - but it is absurd for other people. I'm certainly not writing to intentionally please anybody nor to displease. I will always make comments as I see them and whenever I see BS being promoted as a 'truth' I will respond..

GI wrote: >>

"But now the poor arab is even more confused - hecan ask questions about the cow - what does it eat, what does it breathe, what was it standing on before it was standing on the back of the fish; how does it stay adhered to the back of the fish as it swims along; why is the fish always swimming just nder the surface - or can the cow breathe underwatre too?;how can glutinous water float on air, how can all this rest on darkness .... ad infinitum."

".....the arab is at least given a rough picture of things."

it's not just rough - it is surreal bearing no resemblance to reality

"the prophets figurative explanation is way better than yours which is just dying to be brief. the arab is never meant to understand the whole of this concept. he just sought a rough and rudiemntary explanation. you wouldnt really have done any better."

Not being boastful, but I think I did. Let others judge.

GI wrote:

"how is a cow with 4,000 horns , the giant fish etc etc a metaphor for anything?"

"aww gee, i dunno. how about the centripetal and centrifugal forces on the earth. and BUNJIL knows what other forces that act on this planet not yet discovered. by giant fish you get a rough idea that the earth is moving. it does move. it revolves. by glutinous water means the path is fixed or sluggish. the earth does move around in a circular motion and not for once does it stray. thanks to the sticky gelatinous water of course."

Too much of a stretch. What are the 4,000 horns etc? Isn't a 'Farishta' a big enough concept for the poor arab to get his head around by itself? The Greeks were able to give much clearer and more precise metaphors for the Milky Way and the earth and planets 1500 years previously.

".....and as for the woman battering in the uk. it is fact. people who live there know it. university conducted statistics show it. the only thing that remains to be done is to throw the proof in your face. and those facts show non muslims battering their women."

Of course there are crimes committed i western societies. I said that - in fact would be foolish to deny it. But I also pointed out they are not anywhere near as bad as you make out . And also - we have sophisticated media which gives virtually instant reporting on major stories - as well as well-equipped police services who track down and prosecute felons.

All the figures are there - in your face - up front and honest. We do call forced marriages crimes so there would be crimes listed which do not occur in the statistics for your country for example

".i wonder if that is the reason why so many european and british ladies are reverting to islam. ALLAH be praised."

But they're not, thank God.

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