bayezid: Some more information on Muhammad and Aisha

Submitted by Plato (India), Jan 8, 2009 at 06:26

bayezid, you wrote:

>>looks like you do work with the grand infidel together. how curious. let me stress that we are here to know about the truth. not to slander each other pointlessly. i do believe all of us here have our lives and spending time on the net cursing each other is the last thing we want to do.<<

I read GM's posts and though I don't work with him I would be honoured if I could. I wish I had his breadth of knowledge.

I am not slandering anyone. Give me an example of how I slander you from this blog. Slandering is a specialty of Allah. There are many verses in the Koran where Allah slanders polytheists, people of the book and inoffensive idols. Count the verses when you have the time. Many things about what the Koran really says and what Muslims do have been brought to light on this blog. This blog is not meant for cursing. We see curses mostly from Muslims. Read the posts of Mansoor, you will know what I mean. Listen to the Khutbas coming from the mosques in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

>>only someone who did not know the meaning of a pedophile would call the great prophet a pedophile. yeah, that would be you.<<

Show me from my post that I have called Muhammad a pedophile. You have inferred it from the title of the post. If it makes you feel any better I have only called his act perverse.

>>a pedophile. regardless to say ,it is a very perverted behaviour. for pedophiles, it is like an addiction. they do it like junkies use substance. Muhammad peace be upon him had no addictions and he certainly never exploited young girls.<<

Pedophilia: Wordweb:An adult who is sexually attracted to children finds sexual gratification in exploiting under age boys and girls

Let me quote some hadith (you can of course dismiss them as fakes):

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234
Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged (married) me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down……..There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

**Ibn Ishaq: Suhayli, 2.79: In the riwaya of Yunus Ibn Ishaq recorded that the apostle saw Ummu'l-Fadl hen she was baby crawling before him and said, ‘If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' ( p. 311)
** Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her." (Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636)

That pedophilia is an addiction like drugs is your own claim. You have not substantiated it. But reading these hadith the Prophet certainly seems to have been attracted to children when he was over fifty. Note I have not said that he was a pedophile.

>>his wife aisha was 9 years old when he married her. and from that your mind led you to a frantic race to label that simple act as pedophilia.<<

If you go back to my post you will not find me using the word pedophile anywhere with reference to Muhammad. You told us pedophiles get gratification from sex with children. Here are your words: ‘pedophiles molest children. in doing so, most find gratification. so even if they are aware of this perverse state of being, they program themselves or are programmed to interpret thoe feelings as somehow good.' What was frantic about my statement that bedding a nine-year-old is unethical and immoral at the age of 53. If you are unwilling to apply your own definition to Muhammad that is your prerogative.

>>in 7th century arabia , women were degraded in ways never before seen. altho women were degraded everywhere else duiring that time, in arabia it reached its peak. little girls would be buried alive !<<

This is mullah-speak. Let me quote to you from Benjamin Walker's ‘Foundations of Islam', Rupa & Co, N.Delhi This is a book with more than four hundred citations from the Koran and Muslim and other scholars: Pages 49-51 under ‘Women before Islam':

‘The Arabs too have a long record of intrepid female rulers and tribal chieftains. Such were the previously mentioned queens Zabiba, Shamsi, Yati, Tayl Khunu, Tubwa and Adiya, who long resisted the Assryan kings. The Lihayanite realm, too, boasted a queen. Then there was Nayla – known as Zabba……. Zabba's sister known by the diminutive Zubayba, ruled the town on the opposite bank of the river. When Jadhima ibn Fahn, a leader of the Tanukh tribe, ....tried to make incursions into her territory, Zabba inflicted a heavy defeat on him… The exploits of this queen are celebrated in Arabic poetry.

From the poems and legends of pre-Islamic Arabia it is clear that the women of those days enjoyed a high status and had a great deal of social and sexual freedom. ….

In ancient Arab society, the child belonged to the mother's family and lived in the mother's house…… The head of the household was often the matriarch, and on her death the headship passed to another female. Property, inheritance, communal administration and social status wee all matters in which the mother, sister, daughter, maternal aunt or other female relatives figured prominently…………..

…Married women were regarded as the equals and companions of their husbands.

….In Muhammad's own case, the proposal which led to his first marriage came not from him but the widow Khadija.'

…..Many women were well educated, and some took part in the public debates and poetical contests at the annual fairs, such as those at Okaz near Mecca. Among the most distinguished women poets was Khansa who died (c. 616) just when Muhammad's career was just beginning.

…Women also took and active part in commerce, sending their merchandise to Palestine, Syria and Persia. Muhammad's great-grandmother Salma wa a mechant who directed her own affairs…

…Khadija, the first wife of Muhammad, had large business interests. The mother of Abu Jahl….ran a lucrative trade in perfumery. Hind, wife of Abu Sufyan, another opponent of Muhammad, sold her merchandise among the Christian tribes of Kalb on the Syrian border.

…All in all Arab women were known to be fearless, independent and brave….

What degradation of women are you talking about, bayezid? You have been fed false stories about the jahiliya period to make the coming of Islam look as a great improvement for the Arabs.

>> aisha may ALLAH be pleased with her was incidentally a little girl back then.<<

Aisha was not ‘incidentally' a little girl back then, she was a little six-year-old when Muhammad asked to marry her.

>> daughter of best friend abu bakr. muhmmad peace be upon him, by marrying her, ensured her safety.<<

Why do you assume infidels like me are idiots? Abu Bakr was one of the most powerful of Mecca. What makes you think that he could not have protected his own daughter? Your mullahs have hidden from you the fact that Abu Bakr was hesitant to marry his little girl to the aging Muhammad. Here is a hadith on that:

Muslim Book 62, Number 18:

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Clearly Abu Bakr was not very happy about giving Aisha to Muhammad.

>>even tho the pagan arabs hated his message, they honored and respected muhammad pbuh .<<

This claim conflicts with other claims that they persecuted him in Mecca and had to flee for his life. What happened to that claim now. You must know that mullahs invent stories to suit the circumstance.

>> b marrying aisha , he therefore reduced chances of her being exploited or even killed.<<

The daughter of a powerful Meccan could not have been in any danger. The only danger she faced was from Muhammad who married her when she was still a child.

>> this was also to honor his best friend by ensuring his daughters safety.<<

You honour a good friend by demanding his six-year-old child in marriage when you have one foot in your grave? Would you give your six-year-old to a 53-year-old mullah in marriage? Give us a break, bayezid.

>>aisha was born after her parents reverted to islam. the prophet wanted her to grow up as a very wise muslim trained in the ways of islam from childhood. he noticed that aisha was a very wise and intelligent girl who could benefit the peoples iman.<<

If you have swallowed this mullah story, you will swallow anything.

>>the people around muhammad pbuh were always looking for reasons to slander him or destroy his reputation to stem the flow of islam.<<

This is a direct contradiction of what you stated before: ‘even tho the pagan arabs hated his message, they honored and respected muhammad pbuh'. Those who honour and respect someone will not try to slander or destroy his reputation. Again this is mullah inspired stuff. They always try to have their cake and eat it too and end up with cake on their face and nothing to eat. Don't keep shooting yourself in the foot with the help of these ignorant scholars, bayezid.

The prophet preached for 13 years in Mecca and could get only a handful of believers. There was no flow of believers to Islam. That happened when he held the sword over the Meccans when he captured the town.

>> if the prophet was a pedophile it would have been noticed in a surefire way. there were people around him always.<<

You forget that captive children were easily available to the Muslims when they were in Madina. The Koran had already legitimized sex with slave girls. Who would worry about it if little slave girls were seen coming out of Muhammad's bedroom?

>>aisha siddiqua also had close ties with her parents after her marriage and she only had good things to say about the prophet.<<

She must have seen what happened to people who said bad things about the prophet, even women with babies in their arms (Asma Bint Marwan). She also had a father who was more devoted to the prophet than her. Abu Bakr even once beat her for disobeying the prophet ( I do not have the reference at hand now)

>> the prophet let her grow up to be a young healthy woman and then had relations with her. never before she became an adult.<<

Who was peeping into their bedroom when Aisha and Muhammad were together to confirm this? Aisha herself said that the marriage was consummated when she was nine:

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sunan Abu Dawood Vol3 Bk36 N0 4917
Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he had sexual intercourse with me . I was nine years old.

Either Bukhari and Sunan Abu Dawood were lying or Aisha was lying or she had forgotten her age. If Aisha was lying then all the hadith attributed to her become suspect and your claim that Muhammad was preparing her to become a scholar of Islam by marrying her also falls flat.

>>besides, the prophet had other wives who were grown women during their time. so does a pedophile surroun himself or comit himsel to people so heavily? certainly not.<<

You are assuming that I have claimed that Muhammad was a pedophile. You have assumed that from the title of my post: ‘bayezid: You are right paedophiles find gratification in their crime. What about Muhammad?' If bedding only one child does not make for a pedophile by YOUR definition then so be it. But it still does not absolve the Prophet of having sex with a nine-year-old girl which I told you is immoral and unethical. You try to excuse the behaviour by all kinds of tendentious arguments like the prophet wanting to make her a scholar of Islam, to prevent her from being exploited by other men, to claiming, against Aisha's own evidence, that he had sex only when she had grown to maturity.

>> the pedophiles nture is to be very private. the great prophets life was always surrouned by people who observed him very closely. that is how we get so many traditions or hadeeth today.<<

The prophet had Allah reveal a verse that demanded that his followers respect his privacy. 033.053 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk.

This is a very convenient verse to keep people away from his home. Who would be there to observe him closely??

>> they never witnessed or sensesd perversion in the prophet.<<

Recall the incident with his slave girl Maria and Hafsa. There was no one around to observe what the prophet was up to in Hafsa's bed.

>>the wives would often fight over the prophet at times for which he would console them telling them to be patient for his company. there was a slight and harmless rivalry betwen the wives and they surely would hve mentioned any bad habi of the prophet.<<

The whole issue is about the prophet indulging in something which we find abhorrent today. The people of the time thought nothing of such marriages. They thought nothing of keeping slaves, either. The prophet's behaviour is imitated by Muslims. This act of child marriage is why doddering old Muslims insist their marrying children has the approval of Allah.

>>and if he was a pedophile, where are his other young girls?<<

I told you the prophet had slaves aplenty. What happened to them was never an issue with Muslims. He also married Safiya who was only 17 when he made her a widow.

>> aisha siddiqa was the only woman he married when she was 9. the physical relationship took place way way later when aisha grew up to be an adult.<<

You keep telling infidels that they hide the truth. Reflect on what you are doing now by claiming that the prophet refrained from consummating his marriage to Aisha until she was older (how old? 13, 14, 15? The prophet died when she was 18). This is a sure case of hiding the truth when you know what the truth is and because it is painful for you to contemplate the true nature of your prophet you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

>>so let me see.... the prophet had safeguarded a young woman and made sure she grew up to be a learned scholar (yes, aisha siddiqua was a very renowned scholar of islam) and he treted her in such an exceptionally virtuous way in 7th century arabia, which we cant even dream of today , all these things make him a pedophile???

wow !!<<

Let us take your assertions one by one:

1. He safeguarded a young girl (not woman) who needed no safeguarding as her father was a powerful Meccan chief.

2. You claim she was older than nine when the prophet slept with her. But she claims he did it when she was nine. If you are right then her scholarship is questionable.

3. He once struck her on her chest so hard that it caused her pain: Book 004, Number 2127:

……….. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? ……

4. Your smuggling in the excuse of the 7^th century culture to perfume your prophet shows that his actions were okay in that century and we most certainly can't dream of what he did to Aisha in most countries. You will be in jail.

5. He may not have been a pedophile (given the fact that other old men did it in the 7^th century.) But you have not addressed the problem of ethics and morality. Telling us that other cultures also have condoned child marriages will bring down your prophet to that level.

Interestingly in Benjamin Walkers' account (Pg 127) he notes that Aisha "wished she had never been born, and hoped she would sink into complete oblivion. She expressly forbade the burial of her body near Muhammad's and she was laid to rest in the Baki cemetery outside Medina."

If this account is true it tells you something about what Aisha really thought of her husband.

Regards

Plato

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