bayezid: More about Allah's curses and abuses Part I

Submitted by Plato (India), Jan 8, 2009 at 06:08

bayezid, you wrote:

>>you said ALLAH curses your kind of people here, but lets see for what reason. also how are you so sure you are cursed by ALLAH?<<

Can there be any reason ever for Allah to curse his creatures after he created them to be unbelievers. You said my unbelief comes from Allah, remember? As I have asked before should Allah not be cursing Himself for creating evil unbelievers like me?

I am sure I am cursed by Allah because He says so in the Koran in many places. Just one will suffice for now: 003.087 YUSUFALI: Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind;-

This verse is referring to me because 3:86 says that Allah is talking about who disbelieved after belief. Since everyone is born a Muslim and I am not a Muslim anymore, surely this verse refers to me as well?

>>may ALLAH forbid it is true. mybe youre just confused.<<

Yes I am confused about why He creates me as an unbeliever of His own free will and then goes about cursing me.

>> anyway, lets look at the reasons for god cursing his slaves. 3: 25 – But this self-deception cannot save them from the day for which there is no doubt. At that day, everyone will get exactly for what he has worked for and no one will be dealt with unjustly.

see the underlined words? ALLAH is referring to some peoples denial of the truth. why would a normal person want to deny truth? so denying truth is a cime. a crime to ones own self. how can you blame HIM for cursing you when you act unjustly with your own self thus deserving the curse?<<

Your kidding me getting funnier and funnier. You keep telling me that Allah has created me the way I am i.e. a born denier of the truth (whatever that truth is). Who else should I blame for being a denier of truth? Can't you see the truth is that Allah is the one deserving of His own curse for my being an unbeliever. In the verse you have quoted Allah claims ‘no one will be dealt with unjustly'. Will Allah be just for frying me in hell for His own doing?

>> 3: 86 – Those who acknowledged their Eman and their rasool has established the Islamic Society which is the living testament to the truth and after (all this) if they turn towards the course of kufr, then who can guide them?

And Allah's Laws are such that the zalemin cannot be addressed to receive His Guidance.<<

Bayezid, they turned towards kuffar because Allah had programmed them to do so. Allah also emphasizes in this verse that it is useless to expect them to receive His guidance. That is the law of Allah as he clearly states in the verse

>> 3: 87 – These (kind of) people [see 3: 86] will not receive any blessings of Allah nor will they have the support of Malaekah and the righteous people.

look at the verses again carefully. 'those turn to kufr(unbelief) ' and'zalemin'(oppressors to own self and others). both are negative things . <<

My dear bayezid, you keep forgetting that Allah is creator of everything and knows everything including the future, as Muslims have told me often enough. Those who turn to kufar and those who are zalimun are being ‘negative' because Allah willed them to be so.

>>so if someine wilfuly chooses them, why should ALLAH not curse them?<<

The someone who chooses them wilfuly, has got to be Allah. Otherwise He would not be Allah, would He?? That He should then curse what He created is something only Muslims can understand. To me it looks as though He is cursing Himself.

>>if you have the ability to know right from wron, why will you want to be a zalim?<<

Very good question. I do not have that ability, as Allah has said He has denied me that ability (need I quote those verses again?). It is because of Allah that zalims are zalims. If this does not make sense to you put it down to the simple everyday logic I have used as compared to the complex Islamic one.

>> but some people still do. and only afte this choice does ALLAH curse them. not before .<<

You don't really believe that do you? Because if you do then the Koran did not exist before the universe was created. The curses and abuses that Allah delivers against the kafars were already in the Book of Books lying in Allah's library before they were born.

>> 3: 61 – If anyone disputes with you in this matter after so clear arguments then say, "It is not our way to waste time on futile disputes. We go our way and you follow your own way. We should not interfere in each other's and the results will show who is deprived of Allah's Benedictions."

this verse simply shows how muslims should avoid disputes of faith. ALLAH is suggesting that truth will be truth.<<

Truth is truth without a doubt. But do you doubt that Allah is the One who creates unbelievers to not see the truth?

>> there is no need to quarrel about its authenticity.<<

You are the one quarreling about the authenticity of the truth that Allah is Himself the creator of infidels by now asking us to accept that we, not Allah, are responsible for our being unbelievers.

>>islam is from ALLAH and in the end those who denied it will see they were wrong.<<

Allah made us deny that Islam is from Him (I hope this truth is by now becoming clearer to you). Try untying this knot.

>> The Jews call Uzair the son of Allah, and the Nasara[1] call al-Masih the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth. They only imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. {9:30}

yet agin, we see the reason for ALLAH cursing some people. after they hide the truth from themselves an others.<<

I hope by now you realize it is Allah who is deluded. He cannot claim to create Jews and Christians to be what they are and then curse them for it. In effect He is cursing Himself, as I have pointed out several times.

>>giving THE GOD human qualities means limiting HIM. why would anyone want to say such things about the GOD they all love? so saying somethng liek this is harming ones own belief.<<

It is Allah who gives Himself human qualities. Being angry enough to punish some one is a human quality. Being happy with someone enough to want to reward him is also a human quality. Allah shows these qualities in hundreds of verses. I can make Him angry by praying to idols and He goes into a rage and will dump me in hell. You pray, praise, and grovel in front of Him and obey his taboos and He may grant you paradise. Allah is human after all (i.e. Muhammad)

>> and ALLAH harms none other than those who harm themselves.<<

Sure. And Allah made them harm themselves. Right or wrong?

>> 2:161. Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah.s curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

2:165. Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah.: They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty.

all these verses show the reason for ALLAH cursing people.<<

Consider 2:161 and 6:125. Allah makes people reject faith and die rejecting and then curses them for it. Shows up the mercy of allah.

2:165 says people who worship others besides Allah are unrighteous. Can you explain why worshipping an idol is unrighteous?

>> I can curse myself, but I don't do it as often as Allah does.

hahah first of all we dont know if ALLAH really curses you or not. ok? <<

You keep kidding me with your jokes. 002.159 YUSUFALI: Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-

If I am concealer of Allah's book I can be sure that He is cursing me in this verse.

>>you say you dont curse yourself, but cursing ccan mean damning oneself by denial of truth. cursing simply isnt someone saying 'i wish bad to myself'. if you are aware of the qurans truth and Muhammad pbuh's truth, and then hide it , then you will be cursed.<<

Why have you not explained what is the great truth in the Koran. The most important truth is that Allah alone is to be worshipped. What is so special about this truth? Why can't I worship an idol. If Allah can claim to be the creator of the Universes without a shred of proof except what is written in a book that an illiterate Arab said he had received from an angel who in turn claimed he got it from a being who is in hiding all the time called Allah, why should I believe it?

>>but not otherwise. it could be that you dont understand islam well yet for which you say bad things about it. so i suggest you stop fighting your own soul and me and just understand islam for yourself. <<

If I cannot understand Islam well you should blame Allah for it. I am quite comfortable with the soul (that hides the truth) Allah has given me.

I have understood Islam and it is just gobbledygook. Re Allah making me an unbeliever and then cursing for it.

>>Who else can I blame? Remember writing these sentences:

1. yeah youre right. youre catching on. you are unbeliever cuz HE willed it is right

2. but do you realize that HE also wills that you are too stupid to realize that HE has given you the capability to ask HIM for guidance and so you are unabale to even wish to be a bekliever.

3. one can only wonder what is keeping you from improving your condition. whatever does happen and does not, all is by HIS will"

yes i wrote them to you. i meant to show you how we deserve the blame. <<

How we deserve the blame for what Allah has decided eons ago?

008.044 YUSUFALI: And remember when ye met, He showed them to you as few in your eyes, and He made you appear as contemptible in their eyes: that Allah might accomplish a matter already enacted…..

>>supposing that you are cursed, im not saying for sure you are, then it means it is a thing to be worried about , right?<<

WRONG! I don't worry about it knowing that the Koran tells me Allah is responsible for everything I do.

>> i mean you do care for yourself, dont you? i mean being unbeliever means denying the truth.<<

I am not denying the Islamic truth that Allah has created me to be what I am, an unbeliever.

>> so hat must meanthere is truth but you re denying it purposefully?<<

If Allah is responsible for what I am , then I am not denying that truth.

>> isn it similar to you walking in the highway with your eyes wilfully closed ?<<

Yes it is. But it is Allah who has closed my eyes. What can I do about it??

>>so if this is the case and you know it, why dont you open your eye?<<

That is an impossibility since Allah has closed it. SEE?

>> im sure you don wantto get hit by a truck or fall down a manhole. dont you want to?<<

I don't want to end up in Allah's fiery manhole, you mean. But what can I do as you have told me that ‘you are unbeliever cuz HE willed it is right'.

>>lets say you dont want to, then it means you cant blame anyone but urself. ur own self.<<

I don't want to end up in Allah's fiery manhole. But who else can I blame but Allah because you have informed me that ‘you are unbeliever cuz HE willed it is right'.'

>>it is because no one wants to harm you intentionally. but you wish to harm yourself intentionally. so it is your fault.<<

But Allah does want to harm me intentionally because He has made me incapable of getting guidance. YUSUFALI: If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

This verse tells me that Allah requires my presence in Hell.

>> and here you are blaming ALLAH for cursing you. you hav given HIM a reason to curse you.<<

The reason was created by Allah so that He could curse me. Allah is not only a great deceiver, but also a great joker. He likes to play jokes on unbelievers AND believers all the time.

>>Let us see what Allah does. He creates me to be an unbeliever who has been programmed to be an unbeliever even before I am born. Allah brings meinto the world, and as per Allah's design I refuses to believe in Him. This infuriates Allah no end and He goes about abusing me for not believing in Him exactly as He had designed me not to. Allah actually blames me for it and consigns me to hell. You see the beautiful unshakeable Islamic logic in this don't you, oh great bayezid?"

i completely agree to what you say, but i am simply asking you now : how are you so sure ALLAH destined you to unbelief? only ALLAH knows what he did. you or i dont.<<

I notice some light at the end of your tunnel. Yes Allah is a whimsical being playing jokes on his creatures. It is possible that Allah is playing a prank on you, and as the greatest joker of the universe it could be that I am really the believer and you the unbeliever in His whimsical mind. That would be some joke, would it not? You will know for sure when you wake up on judgment day! What else can you make out of this verse?:

003.026 YUSUFALI: Say: "O Allah! Lord of Power (And Rule), Thou givest power to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off power from whom Thou pleasest: Thou enduest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: In Thy hand is all good. Verily, over all things Thou hast power

This verse is telling you that Allah honours whom He pleaseth (which could be me) and that He brings low whom He pleaseth (which could as well be you, His believer).

Regards

Plato

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