Nozzi: The Koran is not a book of signs it is a book of contradictions

Submitted by Plato (India), Jun 5, 2009 at 09:10

Nozzi, you write,

>>There are a few things I like to highlight to you:

a) Allah says that he is the most merciful but your interpretation has been found to suit you for your purpose purpose that you say that Allah is cruel and he wants non-muslims to fight.<<

Yes Allah says He is the most merciful. But He also says this: 004.056 YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Is this kind of torture for something that is no crime at all except in Allah's egotistical mind the sign of a merciful being?

>>b) Quran states that Allah is the most forgivable but your interprettion has been found not acceptable from Quran's point of view since you menion that Allah would not forgive non-muslims.<<

Allah tells you in many verses that He will burn you in hell for merely not believing in Him. 004.048 YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed

What is so heinous about worshipping inoffensive idols??

>>c) Quran states that muslims do good deeds can go paradise but you twist the words in Quran that Quran discourages good deeds but evil deeds, such as, violence, vandalism, riots and etc.<<

Show me how I have twisted these words: 009.005 YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The only escape for the poor non-Muslim is to repent i.e. become a Muslim. Otherwise he should be killed according to Allah. Search the verses before and after this to see if you can abrogate this killer verse.

>>d) Quran states that muslims do evil deeds will go to hell but you twist the words in Quran to suit your interpetation that muslims do evil deeds can receive rewards from Allah and go to paradise<<

Muslims who take captive slave girls for sex against her will go to paradise as long as he believes in the oneness of Allah. Read 4:48 I have quoted again for you to understand that what I say is true. We non-Muslims consider raping helpless slave girls to be a mortal sin unforgivable even in this world but not so the Koran. 033.050 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee

>>e) Quran states that Adam is also muslim and Adam believes in Allah too and that implies that Allah has been existed even before religion is formed but you say that Allah existed only at the time when Muhammad was arround.<<

I have told you I am atheist how then could I have said anything about when Allah existed. Allah does not exist. I talk about Him only to show you what a silly concept it is to believe in a creator like Allah.

>>f) Quran states that Jihad has to be meant for Holy War and that must be in the cause of Allah.<<

The greatest cause for Allah is the belief in His oneness. Therefore Muslims have to do go on Holy Wars to impose this belief. Allah desires this in: 009.033 YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

>>Or in other words, only Allah has the right to call muslims for Jihad and if Allah says, 'stop', we, muslims must not continue to fight. But you twist the true meaning of Quran that Allah encourages muslims to fight even if non-muslims stop in fighting.<<

Allah calls you to Jihad in verses like:

009.038 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.

009.041 YUSUFALI: Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.

009.073 YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

But since Muhammad is long since dead who will now tell you stop the fighting against non-Muslims Mohammed began in the seventh century?

>>g) Quran demands all muslims to obey Allah. As Quran is the words from Allah, we must obey all the message from Quran.<<

You have still no answered how you came to the conclusion that the Koran is the word of Allah. You only have a book dictated by an illiterate Arab in which it is claimed that it is god's word. What reason do you have to trust what it says?

>> However, you abuse Sahih Bukhari to interpet it to suit your taste and you use the meaning to overwrite the message from Quran.<<

Bukhari's words do not suit my taste. He claims that Ali raped a girl captured as booty (khumus) during a battle. I quoted the whole story verbatim. You tell me how I twisted it to overwrite the Koran.

>>h) When Mohamad Nozzi quotes the message from Quran and he did not twist the meaning from Quran to suit his interpretation. All muslims and non-muslims should flip the Quran to check all the verses from Quran whether he did twist the words to suit his interpetation and all would have found none. However, you have mentioned that all these verses are not the messages from Allah.<<

Nozzi here is one verse you have quoted often from the Koran exactly as you posted in http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/156333 :

Quran 5:32, "...if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind..."

The phrase, not in retaliation of murder, in Quran 5;32 implies that nobody has fought with us and/or slaughter our muslim fellows. The word, anyone, in Quran 5:32 certainly refers to muslims as well as non-muslims since a person, does not restrict itself to only muslims. As the phrase, if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, is mentioned n Quran 5:32 with the phrase, it would be killed all mankind, it implies that it is illegal for muslims to slaughter non-muslims unless they have fought with us and/or we fight as a result of our retaliation of murder with them.

But hiding the first part of the verse which makes clear that the ayat is meant only for Jews you twist its meaning to make it appear as though the verse includes all mankind. I have pointed out that this is a dishonest trick that all Muslims play to fool the unwary non-Muslim into thinking Islam is an enlightened religion. You have swallowed the words "Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that…" Who has twisted the Koran's words, Nozzi? You or me?

Again you distort Koran 4:90 by swallowing some words and not quoting the verses that clarify the meaning of the verse: You wrote: 'Quran 4:90, "...So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them". The phrase, fight not against you, in Quran 4:90 implies that non-muslims do not fight or refuse to fight with us, muslims. The phrase, Allah has opened no way for you against them, in Quran 4:90 implies that Allah wants us to cease in fighting with them, non-muslims.

I replied in http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/156232 : [Nozzi, you are becoming an expert at hiding the words of the Koran. You did it with 5:32 where you hid the first part of Allah's words which tells us that the verse is meant only for the Jews. Let me show you that you have done something similar with 4:90 and you have also hidden the context of this verse by not quoting the previous two ayas. Muslims accuse the Jews and Christians of hiding portions of Allah's revelation. You are committing the same crime with the Koran! Here is 4:90 in full and the relevant previous two:

004.088 YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
004.089 YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
004.090 YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Allah is asking Muslims to be united about the hypocrites (4:88). In 4:89 Allah the merciful tells Muslims to take friends from among them only if they become Muslims (flee in the way of Allah). But then He shows His cruel and vindictive nature by ordering Muslims to kill any of them who reject Allah after becoming Muslims.]

Why do you yourself hide the words of the Koran and twist its meaning as I have demonstrated above but dishonestly turn around and accuse me instead?

>>i) Quran mentions that muslims must stop fighting when non-muslims withdraw from fighting. But you have twisted the words from Allah that he wants all muslims to fight continously.<<

Veres 9:5, 9:29 and 9:111 are not meant for any particular time or place as they say: "Slay the…." 9:5, "Fight those…" 9:29, "…they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain…" 9:111'.

These verses are valid to this day and all time in the future as they were 'revealed' in the final phase of the prophet's life and they do not say 'slayed, fought, etc' indicating they are referring to past events.

>>From all the lists as mentioned above, it proves that you have twisted the message of Allah so that all muslims and non-muslims would have bad impression about Quran.<<

>>As all the lists as mentioned above show that there are many discrepancies between verses to verses in Quran, it proves that all your interpretations are wrong and not acceptable.<<

Have you considered how the All-knowing Allah's words can have discrepancies? Instead of proving me wrong the discrepancies prove Allah is a false god. Show what you have written above to a Muslim scholar and he will probably have a fatwa issued allowing your blood.

>>You have mentioned earlier that the reason that Quran is contradictory is due to Quran itself is so. However, you have to bear in mind that Allah is the one that gives revelation to Muhammad and this means Allah is the author from the first chapter of Quran to the last chapter.<<

First you have to prove that Allah exists for what you say to make any sense.

>>How could there be contradictions if the same author has been directed for message? There should not be any contradiction in Quran.<<

I will give you several glaring contradictions in the Koran:

006.115 YUSUFALI: The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

If none can change His words HOW THEN WERE BIBLE/TORAH CHANGED?

003.123-125 YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.
Remember thou saidst to the Faithful: "Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (Specially) sent down? "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.

008.009 YUSUFALI: Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks." [For context to this verse see: http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/8/index.html ]

God forgets the number of angels He sent to help the Muslims at Badr.

011.007 YUSUFALI: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - …..

041.009 YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

041.010 YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
041.011 YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
041.012 YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

In 11:07 Allah says He created the universe in six days. If you count the number of days He took to create the universe in verses 41:10-12 you will find the Koran contradicts itself by saying eight days were taken to do the job.

And you will also read this in the Koran: 002.117 "To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is." This would mean that when He decreed the creation of the universe all He did was say "Be".

These verses reveal a thoroughly confused Allah who keeps contradicting Himself.

>> The only reasonable thing I could think of is you have abused the message of Allah to suit your own interpretation and that causes the entire Quran to be contradictory.<<

My dear Nozzi, it is Allah abusing His own words by contradicting Himself time and again.

>>Even if you argue that Allah is not the writer but Muhammad, that could not be acceptable that the teaching would itself be contradictory since the same Muhammad that had directed the words to be written in the form of Quran.<<

Muhammad is a human and if he wrote the Koran the chances of contradictions multiply.

>>Even you would read novels or any kind of story books, you would have discovered that the story that he writes from the beginning would never be contradictory to the very last part of the story.<<

The Koran is not a story book. I have shown you few contradictions that stand out above.

>> All in all have to be concluded that you have abused Quran for your own interpretation and/or advantage and this causes the doctrines in Quran to be contradictory.<<

The contradictions I have enumerated above are not my interpretation. They are verses picked out from the Koran.

Regards

Plato

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